STR Design Strategy That Doubled Revenue to $254K with Courtney Petrovich

Summary and Highlights

👤 About Courtney Petrovich

Courtney Petrovich is a real estate investor and the Founder and Principal Designer of Denori Designs, a hospitality design firm specializing in short-term rentals, boutique hotels, and high-performing hospitality spaces.

What makes Courtney different is that she’s not just a designer — she’s an active host and investor who underwrites properties, studies market data, and personally operates the spaces she designs. Her process blends narrative-driven environments with real-world operational insight, resulting in properties that look beautiful and actually perform.

She holds a Hotel Planning and Design Certificate from Cornell University and is a contributing author in the #1 bestselling book Hospitable Hosts: Sisterhood Edition. She’s also a frequent industry voice on podcasts and stages, including an upcoming speaking appearance at the STR Hospitality Summit.

Her current flagship project, The Wesley in Page, Arizona, is a boutique hotel inspired by explorer John Wesley Powell — a property whose design narrative was so compelling it helped the owners raise hundreds of thousands of dollars in investment before the doors even opened.

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✨ Key Takeaways from This Episode

Before you read the highlights, here’s a quick snapshot of what this conversation covers:

• Why market research — not mood boards — should always come first
• How to identify your ideal guest avatar using competitor reviews and AI
• The boutique hotel concept of “sense of place” and how STR hosts can apply it
• Why design leans masculine even when women are the primary bookers
• The hotel industry’s 7-year PIP cycle and what STR operators can learn from it
• How a $60K design investment paid back in five months — and keeps paying

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🔬 Strategy First, Design Second

One of the most refreshing things about Courtney’s approach is that she doesn’t open a design project with colors or furniture — she opens it with a spreadsheet.

“We always start with market research and let that guide us first,” she shares. “What’s performing well? What are competitors doing and not doing? How do we capitalize on the gaps?”

This isn’t just theory. At her first North Myrtle Beach property, that research led to a design that targeted two very specific guest types: golfers during shoulder season and multi-generational families during peak. The result was a property that did more than double the revenue of her next-door duplex — same layout, same ocean views, same shared pool and hot tub.

The differentiator wasn’t luck. It was a strategy that flowed from data into design.

If you want to go deeper on building your guest avatar before you ever pick up a paintbrush, check out this piece on identifying your ideal guest avatar as an STR acquisition strategy.

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🏡 From $120K to $254K: A Real Case Study

Courtney’s first property had been furnished since the house was built in 2003 — beige walls, gold accents, and seafoam-printed couches. It was doing $120K a year for an eight-bedroom second-row-to-the-ocean home.

After doing her market research and identifying her guest avatars, she invested $60K into a full redesign. In the first year post-redesign, the property brought in $254K.

Her neighbor in the identical duplex unit, with a more DIY approach to design, is still at $185K.

“The ROI numbers when we sit down and analyze them are just mind-blowing,” Courtney says. “You cannot get these returns in the stock market.”

And that $60K paid for itself in five months. Everything since has been pure upside.

What made the difference? Not just aesthetics. Courtney installed a mini putt-putt inside, added golf club storage at ground level (no more hauling bags up multiple flights of stairs), stocked family essentials like pack-and-plays and high chairs, and designed a color palette and texture story that made guests feel like they were undeniably at the beach — even with the curtains closed.

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🎯 Finding Your Ideal Guest Avatar

Courtney’s guest avatar process starts broader than most hosts expect. She doesn’t begin in AirDNA or PriceLabs — she starts with travel trends at a regional or national level, understanding why people are coming to a market before she thinks about who they are.

From there, she layers in the platform data. And one of her most tactical suggestions? Use AI to summarize competitor reviews.

“AI is a great place to be able to look at all the reviews of nearby listings and summarize what people are saying. This person came for a golf trip. This person stayed for their child’s graduation and loved that the dining table could fit everyone.”

That kind of insight shapes everything from the amenities you stock to how you describe your property on your direct booking website.

For a practical look at how guest avatar research connects to your entire acquisition and marketing strategy, this article is worth a read: Ideal Guest Avatar: The STR Acquisition Strategy That Drives Every Decision Downstream.

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🏨 What Boutique Hotels Know That STR Operators Don’t (Yet)

Courtney splits her time between short-term rental design and boutique hotel projects, and the cross-pollination of ideas is where this episode really takes off.

Sense of Place

Boutique hotels start every project by immersing themselves in the story of a location. For The Wesley in Page, Arizona, Courtney and the owners spent three days on-site — hiking local trails, visiting history centers, and learning about the geology of the Colorado River plateau. That immersion led to the hotel’s name, its narrative, and its entire design thread: explorer John Wesley Powell.

“Elements from his life are now tied into the design,” Courtney explains. “He kept his exploration notes in leather-bound journals, so we’ve used a lot of leather throughout the design. Wrought iron was popular during his time, so we’ve used a lot of wrought iron and matte black finishes.”

STR operators don’t need to go to that level — but Courtney’s takeaway for hosts is simple: pick up a local history book. Learn something you didn’t know about your area. Let it inspire one small detail that your guests can take with them.

Operational Design

Hotels also think about design from an operations standpoint in ways that most STR operators miss. A platform bed with no clearance underneath? Housekeepers don’t have to vacuum under it. Guests can’t leave belongings under it. Across a 50-room property, that’s hundreds of saved minutes per turnover.

“We can really use those operational considerations from hotels in our short-term rentals,” Courtney says.

The 7-Year PIP Cycle

Branded hotels operate on a Performance Improvement Plan — a scheduled, budgeted redesign every seven years. STR operators rarely plan for this, but Courtney argues they should.

“As new properties come to market, as design trends shift, you should have that budget allocated to make updates to continue to perform at the level guests expect — especially if you’re running a direct booking website and wanting repeat guests.”

For hosts thinking about how design investments play into long-term revenue and resale value, the STR market demands a shorter PIP horizon than traditional hotels. In some markets, that clock might run closer to three to four years.

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🚹 Why Your Design Might Be Skewing the Wrong Way

One of the most surprising moments in this conversation: Courtney’s take on gendered design preferences.

Women are often the primary booker — whether it’s a family vacation or a couples’ retreat. That might suggest designing toward feminine tastes. But Courtney’s research tells a different story.

“Women are okay booking a little more masculine design. They’re not turned off by leather, wrought iron, grounded colors. But men do not want to book an overly fluffy or pink space.”

So unless your guest avatar is strictly female, Courtney recommends biasing toward neutral or masculine design — not because you’re designing for men, but because it removes a reason for any member of a couple or group to say no.

She shared a real example: a honeymooner cabin covered in pink and feather angel wings that wasn’t converting. The fix? A lit fireplace, soft fur blankets, wine glasses, and conversation cards. A close-up photo of that staging outperformed the entire previous listing.

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📸 Photography That Plants the Feeling

Great staging is only half the job. The other half is making sure the photography communicates the emotional experience of staying there.

Gil shared how his photographer stages the same blanket throughout a property shoot — draped over an outdoor chair near the fire, placed next to a coffee table, tucked by a window — to build a continuous feeling of warmth and coziness throughout the listing photos.

Courtney echoed that philosophy completely.

“If a photographer can capture morning light with steam coming off a coffee cup overlooking the marsh, or sunset with two glasses of wine positioned just right — that is such a huge part of being able to convert bookings.”

The goal isn’t just beautiful photos. It’s photos that make a guest mentally place themselves inside the experience — before they’ve even clicked “book.”

For hosts thinking about how their direct booking website translates photography into conversions, here’s a useful read: STR Brand Identity and Direct Bookings: Scaling to 175 Properties with Lisa Roads.

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🔄 Design for Repeat Bookings

Courtney’s broader argument is that design isn’t a one-time event — it’s the foundation of a repeat booking strategy. When guests feel genuinely immersed in a place, they don’t just leave happy. They come back.

And if you’re self-hosting, she says those guest messages are the best feedback loop you’ll ever have.

“You’ll get the warmest feeling when somebody notices that little detail. ‘I sat with my son and learned how to tie knots for two hours. Thank you for that experience.’ That’s why I do this.”

Those moments are also what drives word-of-mouth. Gil noted that the hosts on CraftedStays with the highest direct booking rates — some above 80% — consistently share one trait: guests who feel like they got something special and tell their friends.

If you want to build the post-stay systems that bring guests back, this is a solid place to start: Repeat Bookings Email Strategy: Turn One-Time Guests Into Loyal Customers.

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⚡ Rapid-Fire with Courtney Petrovich

📚 What book has inspired you? The Comfort Crisis by Michael Easter. It explores how we’ve over-engineered comfort out of our lives and what that’s costing us — mentally, physically, and spiritually. Courtney loves it for the writing as much as the message.

“There are always two paths to take in life. One is the easy route, and the only reward is that it’s easy.” — a quote she lives by.

🧠 One piece of mindset advice for someone starting something new? Never put parameters on yourself. Don’t go into a big goal thinking it will take a year — you might achieve it in two months. Don’t assume a ceiling on revenue or growth. Releasing those artificial limits is where real abundance begins.

“I’ve experienced so much more than I ever could have imagined by releasing the boundaries I put on myself.”

📌 One thing listeners can put into practice today to amplify direct bookings? Become a steward of your property’s location. Pick up a local history book. Learn something about the area you didn’t know. Let that inspire even one small detail — a book on the coffee table, a knot-tying kit, a local cookbook — that helps guests feel genuinely connected to where they are.

That sense of place is what turns a stay into a memory. And memories drive direct bookings.

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🤝 Connect with Courtney Petrovich

Courtney and the Denori Designs team work with STR hosts and boutique hotel owners across the country. Whether you’re wondering if it’s time for a full redesign or just a refresh, they offer initial consultations to help you figure out what makes the most sense for your ROI.

• 🌐 Website: denoridesigns.com
• 📸 Instagram: @denoridesigns
• 👥 Facebook: facebook.com/denoridesigns
• 💼 LinkedIn: Courtney Petrovich

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🎧 Listen to the Full Episode

There’s a lot more in this conversation — including Courtney’s take on what boutique hotel investors know about exit strategy that STR operators are leaving on the table, and the full story of The Wesley hotel project that went from concept to capital raise on renderings alone.

Don’t miss it. Listen to the full episode on Spotify and YouTube.

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🏠 Ready to Turn Your Design Investment Into Direct Bookings?

You’ve done the hard work — the market research, the design, the photography. Now you need a website that actually converts that traffic into bookings.

CraftedStays is purpose-built for short-term rental operators who are serious about direct booking growth. Fast, mobile-first, SEO-ready — and you can launch in minutes without touching a line of code.

👉 Start your free trial at CraftedStays.co

Transcription

Courtney: We do too in short-term rental design, but when we got into hotels, if you think about the operational impact of a bed frame that a cleaner has to clean under versus a platform bed that nothing can get left under it by guests, housekeepers do not have to vacuum under it, say that saves five minutes per room.

You extrapolate that across a 50-key property, that’s a huge difference in turnover costs. And so I feel like hotels are very good at considering every little detail because of the impact it has, and that we can take those lessons as short-term rental operators and bring those into our properties to not only make a difference for the guest experience, I mean, who wants to forget their, their kid’s favorite toy under the bed and have to have the host ship it to them, et cetera.

So we can really use those operational considerations from hotels in our short-term rentals.

Gil: Before we bring on our guest, I want to talk just a little bit about something that I’ve been hearing a lot from hosts. I keep on hearing the same thing, “I know my website isn’t converting, but I can’t afford $8,000 on an agency to rebuild it.” Here’s the thing, you’re learning all these marketing strategies, you’re driving traffic, and you’re putting it all to work, but if your site isn’t really built to convert, you’re basically lighting your energy and money on fire.

And even if you could afford an agency build, every time you want to test something or make a change, you’re having to pay them again. You can’t iterate, you can’t test, and you really can’t improve on things. You don’t need a custom $10,000 website to get the conversion rates that really matter. You just need the right platform.

That’s why I built CraftedStays. It’s purpose-built for short-term rentals and designed from the ground up to help you drive more direct bookings. You can finally turn that traffic into bookings, and you can keep on testing and improving as you learn. You can make changes all on the platform. You don’t need to learn something new.

So if you need some help or you wanna get started, go ahead and go to craftedstays.co and start your free trial. Now let’s bring on our guest and dive deep into hospitality and marketing. Hey, folks. Welcome back to the Booked Solid Show, the show where we bring in top operators to discuss hospitality, operations, and direct bookings.

On today’s show, I have Courtney Petrovich. She’s the founder of Denori Designs, a design firm focused on boutique hotels and short-term rentals. She’s also a short-term rental host herself. On today’s show, we talk about the importance of strategy prior to even designing your space. We also talk about how to spot your ideal guest avatar, including how to leverage your competitors’ reviews, and we dive into repeat bookings by really focusing on immersive experiences.

So without further ado, let’s bring her in

Gil : Courtney, welcome to the show.

Courtney : Thanks, Gil. I’m excited to be here.

Gil : I’m excited for our conversation today. Uh, you come with a wealth of knowledge there, both from being a host yourself, being a designer, but you also have a different angle where you’re also designing specifically for hotels as well too. So, there’s a lot to unpack. There’s a lot I wanna learn about your history and kinda how you got into this, and some of the learnings that STR operators can learn from the hosp- like the hotel space as well too.

So, as we get started in this, Courtney, do you mind giving folks an introduction on who you are?

Courtney : Sure. Well, I am Courtney Petrovich, the founder and principal of Denori Designs. We’re a hospitality design firm, so we specialize in short-term rentals, boutique hotels, resorts, any hospitality asset. And I started, as you mentioned, I’m a host myself, so I started off there, investing into my own short-term rentals, learning the revenue numbers, how to underwrite properties.

I am also a data nerd, so that, the spreadsheets and everything really excited me in the beginning, and learned through that process how much I love design and how passionate I am about carrying that into the world as well.

Gil : Yes. How, uh, just to dig i- deeper into, into that, how much does the data side of it actually flow back into the design side of it? Because it’s almost like if you think about like the left and right brain thing, and y- a lot of people think of it as like two separate things. But do you now… You’ve been doing it for a little while.

Do those converge for you?

Courtney : Oh my gosh, 100%. I feel like we shouldn’t even call ourselves a hospitality design firm. I feel like we should call ourselves a hospitality strategy firm because they’re so interrelated. Every part of our design process includes market research into what’s driving the best revenues in different markets, what are competitors doing and not doing, how do we want to replicate that, how do we wanna capitalize on any places they’re missing?

So it’s very much a marriage of the data side and the beautiful design side.

Gil : Yeah. Do you– When you start a new project, does it lean more towards one or the other, or they kinda go in conjunction? Like, do you do the market research first, or do you try to find the i- the ideal vision or, or, or the both of them are together?

Courtney : That’s a great question. We always start with market research and let that guide us first. So that is always step one, dive into the market research. There are certain, uh, markets that we’ve done so many projects in at this point that I feel like I have those revenue numbers tattooed on my brain. So, you know, we don’t have to go quite as heavy.

We know what the comps are for different bedroom counts, things like that, but we design across the country, so we’re always getting new markets. And step one is let’s do market research. Let’s look at what’s performing well. Let’s amenitize based on that, and then let’s create our cohesive color palette and design aesthetic after we’ve established that market data.

Gil : Yeah, yeah, yeah. Talk to me about some of the f- your most favorite projects that you’ve had a chance to work on. Like, what was the before? What was that like? Who did you work with? Where was it? And kind of the journey to w- like, building that and kind of the outcomes of it.

Courtney : Oh my gosh. I always… When people ask me I’m like, “You’re making me choose a favorite child. Every one is my favorite project.” But definitely some memorable ones. The second short-term rental that I purchased was last December. It’s in North Myrtle Beach, and it sits on this inlet, and it’s equidistant to the ocean, and it overlooks a marsh.

And so we had really a lot of fun bringing in the energy of the ocean and the marsh and kind of having this, like, levity balanced with this grounding feeling to give, um, sorry, to give guests a sense of place where they are experiencing both the beauty of the marsh and the wildlife that lives there, as well as the beach and the energy of the ocean.

So that was really one of my favorite projects recently

Gil : Nice. Um, what was kind of like… Do you have any stories of kinda like the before and after in terms of like, uh, uh, revenue impact and some of the projects that you worked on?

Courtney : Yeah. So my first short-term rental, which is a block away from the one that I just told you about, one block away, we purchased it and it had been furnished, I think, in 2003 when the home was built and probably not refurnished since. So think beige walls, that old style gold that was very popular in, like, the early 2000s.

The couches were beige and literally had, like, seahorses and ocean life , uh, fabric printed on them. So just very dated design. And it was doing 120,000 a year, ’cause it’s an eight-bedroom, second row to the ocean. So not that that’s a bad revenue number at all, but… And this was my first property. I was learning how to underwrite, I was learning all these things, and I was doing the market research and I said, “You know, I think we can get to 238 if we design this right.”

So I went in, designed it based on all of that research, and in our first year we did 254,000. So we took the revenue from 120,000 to 254,000 just with those design changes. Um, and it’s, it’s pretty cool because it is a duplex, so we have a case study right next door, and they do 185 a year with their sort of DIY design, let’s call it, and we do 254.

So that is the only differentiator, right? Like, we have the same layout, we have the same ocean views, everything, but the design makes that much of a difference.

Gil : When you look at the, the difference from a feeling perspective and maybe some of the amenities, what’s some of the biggest contrast areas where you’re like, oh, that like these are the like the three things that we put in there that made a huge difference and evokes much greater emotion or this feeling like actually I wanna stay there much over the other one?

Courtney : I think the biggest, because these are duplexes and they have shared pool, shared hot tub, right? So we couldn’t differentiate much in that regard, but we did really define a guest avatar. In my market research, I learned, hey, in shoulder season it’s jam-packed with golfers enjoying all the golf courses in the area, and in busy season it’s families.

So amenity-wise, we put in a lot of artwork, and a mini putt-putt inside, and different things that would attract those golfers so we could capitalize on shoulder season. And then we put in simple things like pack and play, a highchair, baby gates, things that would attract those families during the busy season and to want to stay with us for holidays.

So it really was diving deep into that guest avatar and designing around what they would want.

Gil : Yeah. It’s interesting that it’s like, it’s– that I think the strategy leads so much of the revenue outcomes, um, because some of the stuff that you’re talking about, they’re not huge, huge investments. You’re not talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of investments there. Putting a mini putt-putt in there, artwork, family essentials, like those aren’t like…

They’re not gonna break the bank, but it sounds like it, it would definitely in more than two X increase the original revenues and is doing significantly better than your neighbor that has already updated the designs quite a bit. And it was– It sounds like it was really Doing the market research upfront, that is the highest leverage part.

Courtney : Yes, absolutely agree. And just creating that feeling of being at the beach, so the textures that we chose, the color palette that we chose, the wallpapers all reflected that when guests are in our home and they close the curtains at night, they feel very anchored in Myrtle Beach rather than like, you know, when you stay at a Marriott and you close the curtains, it’s like, “I could be in New York City.

I could be in Oklahoma, who knows?” So I believe that really anchoring the guests and providing a sense of place during the entirety of their stay, even at night when they’re in the home, has made a huge difference as well.

Gil : Yeah. You, you mentioned the sense of place there, and we were talking just a little bit before the show, um, about some of the learnings that you’ve had and really kind of transitioned to kind of like the direct booking side of things. The hosts that have done really well in direct bookings are usually they, they think about things slightly differently, or they have a strategy towards the things.

Talk to me a little bit about what you’ve learned kind of on the hotel side and how that kind of translates into why they get more direct bookings traditionally and some of the things that you’re learning that also applies to short-term rentals.

Courtney : Yeah, that’s a great segue because it does really start with hotel design with establishing a sense of place. Um, I should say boutique hotel design. Of course, there are branded hotels that are always going to be whatever gray paneling and standard headboards and things like that. But boutique hotels, we have more flexibility because we’re not tied to a flag or a brand who’s dictating what we do.

So in boutique hotels, we start with that sense of place. We do research on the area, and so one project that we’re working on right now in Page, Arizona, I was so fortunate the owners asked me to fly out and meet them out there for inspection, and we spent three days. We, of course, went through the property during inspection, but we also went to the local area.

We went to history centers. We went on local hikes. We looked at the geology and geography and just took in as much of the culture and the history of that place as we could, and that inspired even the name of the hotel. When we were at a history center one day, we learned about John Wesley Powell, the explorer who Uh, mapped much of the Grand Canyon and the Colorado River in the area that the hotel is in, and so we named the hotel The Wesley after John Wesley Powell.

And we’ve now created this design narrative that runs as a… In design, it’s called a red thread, something that runs through the entire design to tie it together. And so elements from his life are now tied into the design and help anchor the guests into that experience, and also it helps guests learn something, which I think is helpful for direct bookings as well, even in short-term rental properties.

Maybe it’s not a plaque on the wall, but maybe you leave certain books on the coffee table that connect people to the history of the place, and they can leave feeling like they’ve been immersed and they’ve learned something as well.

Gil : Yeah. What, what are some of the things that you, like when you’re designing a place, either on the short-term rental side or even on the hotel side, are these kind of things that you wanna leave behind that brings them that togetherness or that sense of place there? Um, like some of our places in, in the Smokies, we, we go to the national park and we pick up all the national park…

Well, not all, but we pick up a bunch of national park books, and we leave it at the properties, and hopefully they stay at the properties. But we leave it at the property so that they can, they can see and they can explore the national parks. They can see all the wildlife there. They know where Cades Cove is and what they should expect.

So it gives them a sense of like, okay, this is, these are materials that you can take a look and see what’s around you. But I’m interested from your side, do you do something similar on either on the hotel side or the short-term rental side?

Courtney : Well, first, I love that you guys do that. Uh, that as a guest, ’cause I stay at Airbnbs too, of course, I get so excited when I see things like that and actually use them and do leave them for future guests. But so on the hotel side, we’ve, um, gathered pictures from John Wesley Powell’s explorations and integrated those into some of the wall art design and some of the features in the lobby and public spaces.

We’ve also been very considerate of the materials that we use. He kept his exploration notes in leather-bound journals, and so we’ve used a lot of leather throughout the design, whether it be in headboards or different places. Uh, wrought iron was a very, uh, popular material during his time, so we’ve used a lot of wrought iron and matte black finishes.

And so it, it’s finding a balance of letting people experience that story without sort of- Forcing it upon them. And then in short-term rentals, we love to… One little thing that we always do in our design projects is we include cookbooks local to the area and cocktail books local to the area with, like, a little cocktail station so that, you know, I host a lot of multi-generational families at my two eight-bedroom properties.

A lot of them want to cook together, and they can pick up these cookbooks that are local to South Carolina and choose recipes to, again, feel immersed in that place. So that’s, those are a couple of examples of how we try to create that for guests.

Gil : Yeah. Yeah. I’m, I’m thinking like that y- y- you, you mentioned the sense of place and you, you I think photography has to do with a lot of, like, bringing that to the guest there. I think there’s, like, two parts of it. One, you want to be spotted when someone is shopping for a stay. But you also want to create this feeling that like, “Oh, when I’m actually in this stay, this actually delivered above and beyond it.”

So I’m trying to think, like, as you go through design and you’re guiding, um, your client through that process, what are some of the things that you want to make sure that you always hit home on to make sure that they kind of maximize, one, the revenues, and two, the potential of someone coming back or having really strong, good word of mouth so that they can bring other folks back to it too?

Courtney : Yeah, that’s a great question. So in addition to everything we just talked about with, like, that sense of place and the amenities that we talked about in the beginning, I would say creating that’s very comfortable for them. So we think about, in space planning a lot, the orientation of the public areas.

So if there’s a large living room or dining room, we’re not orienting all the seating towards a television. We’re making sure that people are seated facing each other. If they didn’t want to be immersed in conversation and have these experiences and memories together, they’d be at a hotel and have their separate spaces.

But they’ve chosen your home, and they’ve seen the photos where they may not think to themselves, “Hey, those swivel chairs, we could either talk to the family who’s in the living room on the sectional, or we could swivel and talk to the people who are sitting at the dining table.” They’re not thinking that, but subconsciously, that sinks in when they see your photos on your direct booking website.

So space planning is definitely a huge part as well.

Gil : Yeah. I think it’s almost like with photos, you have to give them a sense of feeling like they’re in that moment there. And I think when you swivel the chairs, even if it’s temporarily in the photos, if you need a stage and you move them closer together, it gives them a sense like, “Oh, actually that’s intended how it’s used.”

Like for one of the things, one of the things, like our photographer’s really good where she will take a blanket, um, and it could be even the same blanket all throughout all of her photos, and then she’ll leave it draped over the, um, the chairs outside, the lawn chairs outside, so it, like right next to the fireplace, so it gives them a sense like, oh, that cozy night feel in the night where you have the fire running and she has the fire running and then the blanket to like cozy up and you can have a conversation and stay out there.

Like she’s trying to like implant that, that emotion in that person’s head there.

Courtney : Mm-hmm. Yeah, you have a great photographer then. That’s everything we always try to achieve with staging and the photographs, and even the way that photographers are able to capture the textures and light, right? Like, it’s amazing if a photographer can spend the day and capture the morning light and get the steam coming off of a coffee cup overlooking the marsh in our instance, or if they can catch sunset and have those two glasses of wine positioned.

That is such a huge part of being able to convert bookings.

Gil : Yeah. You– we talked quite a bit about kind of the guest avatar there and kind of how important it is. What’s kind of your thinking process as you work with a new client or even your own properties, finding that i- that ideal guest avatar and figuring out how to plan the space around that guest avatar?

Courtney : Yeah. So that’s a great question. So it is starting a little bit more broad and even outside of AirDNA and understanding what are the travel trends and what is driving guests to this market. I used the example earlier of we saw that X number of people, a very large number of people travel to Myrtle Beach for golf, or, um, we worked on a oceanfront property in Florida, and it’s right by, uh, oh my gosh, I’m gonna say this wrong, TWF Sawgrass, and so again, that golf av- avatar or Nashville, right?

If you’re attracting bachelorette parties. And so it’s looking at those travel trends more broadly, not even within these tools that we think about within short-term rentals like PriceLabs and AirDNA. It’s starting higher level, understanding that, and then going into AirDNA or PriceLabs or these other softwares to look at what are other people in the market doing?

What guests are they attracting? What are the reviews saying, right? AI is a great place to be able to look at all the reviews of nearby listings and summarize, this is what people are saying. This person came for a golf trip, and they said X. This person stayed for their child’s graduation, and they loved the dining table, could fit everyone.

So it is really starting with those broader picture things. Once you have that established, then it’s diving down into, okay, we’ve established we want to target golfers. How can I get creative? So at my first property- We have a closet in the carport that was just full of dirt and who knows what. And so we cleaned that out.

We put up a vignette of some turf and golf clubs, and we put a sign that said “Backdrop,” and we advertise now. We have floor level or ground level storage for your golf clubs, so you’re not ca- ’cause all these beach houses are on stilts, and they’re like lugging their golf bags up multiple flights of stairs.

Well, now we have a simple amenity to advertise, “Hey, we’re thinking of you. Leave your golf clubs here in this locked closet at ground level.”

Gil : Yeah. That’s actually one of the questions I was gonna, gonna ask you, that I wonder if there’s any differences between Really trying to build the guest avatar, like, for the male versus the female because a lot of times in vacation rental, usually it’s the mother that’s doing the trip planning and the things that you want to make sure that they have so that they have a very stress-free stay.

But it also sounds like as you think about the other flip side, if your avatar is on the male side, the things that they care about and the things that you may wanna have photographed and things you wanna highlight or talk about in the, in the amenities list, like it changes dramatically. Um, and it’s less so about the pack and play, it’s less so about the laundry.

It’s more about like, okay, I’m here for this specific reason. How do I make sure that I have everything I need and it’s, it’s actually where I wanna stay?

Courtney : Exactly. One thing that we’ve found in design, so if we’re talking about design aesthetic and not so much amenities, is that women are okay booking a little bit more masculine design. They’re not turned off by some of those more grounded masculine colors or we think about materials that are masculine, leather, wrought iron, things like that.

Women don’t seem bothered to book that, but men do not want to book an overly fluffy or pink. The wall behind me, they’re probably not booking that place, right? So we always bias a little bit towards either very neutral or masculine unless our guest avatar is strictly female for some reason, even though we know the primary booker, like you said, it’s usually mom booking for the family or a girl booking for her group of friends.

But we do lean a little bit neutral or masculine for that reason.

Gil : That’s so interesting, especially when you have a place that is kind of dual purpose, where on the shoulder season you have the golfers, and during the peak seasons you have the family-friendlies, and you would think that you’ll have to kind of ride, ride the middle quite a bit, um, to kind of maximize things.

But it’s interesting to hear from you that actually no, like if I had a choice between the two, I’ll lean more towards the masculine side. I, I never thought about that. Like, like if you think of like MCM for instance, like mid-century, it’s on more kind of like more, the more masculine side of things. Like you have the leather, you have the kind of the, the, the wearing down of, of that, which is kind of more on the masculine side.

But like if you flip it on the other way, other way around, yes, I, I, I would agree. Like if you had like, like even like light pink pillows all over the place, a little bit more fluffy, that, that is a bit of a, a turnoff on, on, on the men’s side. But I don’t think like having a, a leather s- like a leather couch, um, and kind of like the, like the wrought iron, that wouldn’t bother my wife at all.

I’d, I’d never thought of it this way.

Courtney : Yeah, exactly. Someone came to me and they had a honeymooner cabin. That was their guest avatars. They wanted to attract couples on their honeymoon or a date weekend or whatever the case may be, and they thought, “Well, the woman’s the one going to be booking this date weekend,” which I always book when my husband and I are going somewhere, so she wasn’t wrong there.

But she said, “I’m not getting bookings. What’s going on?” And I took a look at her photos, and it was all pink and feather angel wings and, and I said, “I know the woman is the one booking, but her husband or her partner is coming with her, and he’s going to shoot this down right away. They’re going to look for someone with a lit fireplace,” and it was a mountain market, so with those soft fur blankets and wine and maybe a set of conversation cards, like a close-up shot of, of that.

They’re not, they’re not looking for date night in a pink, fluffy, you know, condo. So that’s a real world example that came to mind when you mentioned that.

Gil : Yeah. That’s, that’s so interesting. W- what are… Are there any other things that you’ve learned from designing on kind of the more boutique hotel side of it that us on the short-term rental side can learn a lot? Because I, I, I do, I, I agree with you that on the hotel side, they traditionally have been much higher on the direct booking side, even on the repeat guest side of things.

Any other learnings that you think that would be valuable for short-term rental hosts to really understand what’s going on, on, on the other side of hospitality?

Courtney : Yeah, I… Not so… Well, it’s part of the design, but on the operations side, they consider everything so carefully. We do too in short-term rental design, but when we got into hotels, if you think about the operational impact of a bed frame that a cleaner has to clean under versus a platform bed that- Nothing can get left under it by guests.

Maids, or sorry, housekeepers do not have to vacuum under it. Say that saves five minutes per room. You extrapolate that across a 50-key property, that’s a huge difference in turnover costs. And so I feel like hotels are very good at considering every little detail because of the impact it has, and that we can take those lessons as short-term rental operators and bring those into our properties to not only make a difference for the guest experience, I mean, who wants to forget their, their kid’s favorite toy under the bed and have to have it…

the host ship it to them, et cetera. Um, so we can really use those operational considerations from hotels in our short-term rentals.

Gil : Yeah. I, I think even beyond the– There’s like a point of like hospitality, but you also got the sense of consistency as well too there, where it’s a lot easier for your housekeeper not to forget to, um, to vacuum under the co- underneath the bed. It’s, it’s quite hard a lot of times. And so like I, I agree with you.

A lot of times like I, I think this happens quite often in the short-term rental space. We, uh, a lot of times will take consumer products and we’ll put into a home because that’s what we would use at home. But when you’re looking at hotel, they’re looking at a different set of inventory that they’re looking at to, to amenitize their space because they’re looking at longevity.

They want to replace as little as possible. They don’t mind spending sometimes two or three X the amount because it’s going to last longer. Like, I’ve had… I made that mistake where we purchased beds or frames that we thought were decent and they looked good. They looked really, really good. But when we put it all together, we had everything in there and we had, after our first year, like, we had to replace the slats on it because it just didn’t, didn’t hold up.

But that’s not something that you really have to worry about on the hotel side because they are usually metal, metal frames inside. They’re made to last. Um, they may not look as, as uniquely designed as something that you might find on the consumer side of it, but it’s, it’s there for a reason. It’s why hotels choose some of these things sometimes.

Courtney : thing that comes to mind with hotels… I totally lost it. Sorry, editors.

Speaker 4: No, no, it’ll come back. It’ll come back.

Courtney : here, I remember it. Another thing that comes to mind with hotels is that traditionally branded hotels are on a seven-year PIP cycle. It’s called a performance improvement plan, and so they know that every seven years they’re going in and making design updates to make sure that the property can earn the rates that it should be.

And so I think as short-term rental owners, as we plan for capital expenditures and other expenses- That come along with owning, we should al- also be planning for our own, we’ll call them PIPs, performance improvement plans, so that as new properties are coming to market, as market dynamics shift, as design trends shift, that we have that budget allocated to make those updates to continue to perform at the level that our guests are expecting, especially if we have direct booking websites and they’re– we’re wanting repeat guests every year.

They will be so much more, so much happier if they come back and they find these updated updates and that you’ve continued to iterate on what was already going well. So I think the PIP is another way that we can take what we’ve learned from hotels and implement them into short-term rentals.

Gil : makes a ton of sense, um, but I don’t think that most folks will even fact that, factor that into their underwriting. I certainly did not. Um, I, I put CapEx in there and it was really to make sure that I replaced certain items, but to think of it more holistically as like, okay, things are gonna wear out, but We may need to do a, a full reset at year seven.

And we do some pretty… No, I, and I, I don’t know if it’s how big it is, but it’s… We spend at least 10% of the purchase pr- or the, the purchase price of the property towards remodel there. Um, and that we did that upfront, and I, and now that I’m thinking back, like, we may need to do s- maybe not as much, but a, a similar version of that come, come the seven-year time span.

And maybe even sooner than that because I think on the hos- on the hotel side, the competition coming in is less fierce. Like, y- we haven’t seen that big boom that we have in the short-term rental in a lot of different markets, where now a, a lot of folks are coming… Like, uh, maybe less this year, but, like, previous years, there’s this big maturity in the short-term rental market where the competition has gotten a lot stiffer.

Like, I think one of our properties we owned for, like, two years, and after COVID, the competition was really, really stiff, where we had to put a full-blown, like, mini golf course on the outside of our entire lawn. We spent a God awful amount of money on it, uh, amount of money on it after we had already furnished it.

But it was really to make sure that… It wasn’t really to boost our revenues. It was to make sure that we can continue on the same revenue trends that we were privous- previously at. So I think, like, that, that is almost like a part of, like, the seven-year PIP plan, and I think that’s one good takeaway as, as short-term rental operators.

Like, they think about how they need to invest into it upfront, but also there may be a time in the near future where they need to think about a full reset or a partial reset of their stay.

Courtney : Yeah, and I think it’s so great that you said full or partial reset, ’cause we do refreshes all the time where it’s not a full redesign. We are keeping as much of their furnishing and decor as makes sense, and if we start A design from scratch, we’re always thinking about selecting bed frames that are going to last durability-wise, that are not going to go out of style.

But then maybe we put in more trending throw pillows because we know those are going to need replacement in about three years anyways, just from use. And at that point, we can do a design refresh with keeping the bed frames, keeping the large sofas, the big things that you invested in, but make a huge impact and design change through things like throw pillows, curtains, accent walls, and we call that a refresh.

It’s a much lower lift financially, design-wise, but it makes a huge impact. I mean, we’ve seen incredible differences just from refreshes. And that, I say about every three years for things like that, throw pillows, soft furnishings, things

Gil : Yeah, I, I… And that’s, that’s such a inexpensive… Like, those textiles there. The things that get touched very often, they get worn down as well too, but they also get dated a lot faster. Um, like you mentioned, like, we mentioned, like, the early 2000, there was this wave of beige, and then there was this wave of grays.

I don’t know what, what, what era we’re in now, but there was a big gray area.

Courtney : A lot of warmth is very big now. Those deep, warm, rich colors is popular now. We try to find paint colors that are a little bit more enduring, especially in the main living areas. In the bedroom accent walls, we get a little bit more creative, right, for photos. And it’s one accent wall if you need to repaint it in three years, not the end of the world.

But yeah, you’re so right. Like, these different trends come in, and you can’t just keep riding that trend when it’s 20 years old and expect to perform.

Gil : Yeah. Well, you, you mentioned earlier about, like, you having your neighbor having this duplex. One of my pool cabins in the Smokies, like few doors down, we have another cabin that was built that’s exactly the same. I- identical. Like, but n- when I looked at their listing, they were probably performing 40% to what we were doing.

And if you look at the photos, it was a huge difference. Like, you still had the indoor pool, you still had the same, like, s- same hot tub. But the paint of it, the freshness of it, the textiles in, of it, um, the, just the orientation of how we laid out our furniture. I remember even seeing this old TV that’s mounted, like this old CRT TV, the big old tube TVs, was still in it.

And then you imagine, like, the, like, if you’re booking a place and you still had a CRT TV, you felt like you’re, like you went back many, many decades.

Courtney : Right. Oh my gosh. That

Gil : I think, like, had they done just even a light refresh, they had, they would have gotten so much more. Like, the, the, the return, the return on investment is just enormously high if they just spent a little time and energy.

And like, kind of back to our point of, like, the seven-year PIP, like they’re probably like 20-year PIP, like they haven’t done anything.

Courtney : Right. Yeah, the ROI on design we’ve seen is insane. I mean, I spent $60,000 on my first house, the one we brought from 120 to 254, and I mean, so if you think about that revenue difference, I paid myself back in five months on the design, and everything beyond that is pure profit.

Gil : It’s perpetual, yeah.

Courtney : our, our ROI numbers when we sit down and analyze them, it’s just mind-blowing to me.

Like, you cannot get these returns in the stock market, um, anywhere else. So it’s, it’s really … The numbers are pretty compelling.

Gil : Yeah, and even if you look at it beyond just the revenue numbers, like, even, like, the resale value of it. Like, if you were to turn that around, like, like the equity that you built into the property is enormously higher now. Like, it, it does… From an investment standpoint, it performs much better if someone’s looking at it from a commercial real estate standpoint.

But even as a home buyer that’s buying this as a second home or even their primary, the, the investment that you made into it, yes, it pays you on a cash flow perspective, but also pays you on the equity perspective as well too.

Courtney : 100%, and you mentioned earlier, or we started talking about what are hotels getting right. I think that’s one thing they do really well is they know that their exit strategy is that end result of them selling the asset, and so they really plan for that end sale price from the beginning, and I think that short-term rental operators could be a little bit more intentional about that to capitalize on that in the long term.

Gil : Yeah. I, I, I, I almost forget that sometimes where hotels are, it’s commercial real estate, so it’s, it’s really the return on investment is what, what is being, um, valued at when, when an asset is being sold, like what is the cap rate there? Um, so it’s, it’s very important for them to make sure that they have really, really healthy cash flows that determines how much they can sell that at, and if they can spend a little bit more on design, but they get so much more in perpetual revenue, that makes a big difference on if they were to sell that at five years’ point, what would it be at?

Courtney : Exactly. Yeah. It’s, it’s huge and, uh, definitely a lesson that short-term rental investors can take away as well.

Gil : Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Cor- Courtney, we usually end the show with three questions. First question first: What is a book that has inspired you?

Courtney : I love reading, so I have a lot of favorite books. But one of the books that has inspired me the most is called “The Comfort Crisis” by Michael Easter, and he dives into the ways that we’ve engineered, over-engineered comfort into our lives, and how, what that is costing us, and how to start to challenge ourselves to push ourselves beyond comfort, what the benefits of that are.

And it’s just very inspiring. He’s a great writer. I really appreciate good writing, and so that has made a big impact on my life.

Gil : Is this kind of the sense of like, “Oh, everything is at our fingertips now. If we ever want anything, we can get it delivered. If we wanna change the track on the radio now, we can change it. We can ch- change…” Like, we don’t have to wait anymore, and it’s, it’s almost to a point where like I, I, I think of this as like being a parent and, and our children and the, the lack of patience that they don’t need to learn anymore because everything is almost accessible.

If you have a question, you can ask it. You can scream it over to Google, and they’ll answer you. Or if, like constantly I’m playing DJ in the car because they wanna listen to a different song. Like I never had that as a child.

Courtney : Right. Right. And it even goes back to back in history, as humans, we had to move to acquire food or work to acquire food. Um, or I mean, even work to have any entertainment. We had to build a fire to have entertainment. And so kind of talking about our, our biological needs and, and the difference b-between the culture and environment that we’ve created today, and how to start to challenge ourselves to bring back in movement or changes to diet or more time in nature, and the neurological benefits of doing things like that, and the health benefits.

And so it is really a fascinating read.

Gil : Yeah. Okay. I’m, I’m g- I’m gonna have to pick that one up because I, I feel like a lot of times, like, even, uh, more so nowadays w- when things are changing and moving so fast, like, it feels like, oh, we are going to get to this ominous place where everything is just so easy, but it hasn’t… Like, I don’t, I don’t know if people nowadays, uh, is any happier than they were maybe 20 years back when there were less comfort in some of these things.

You had to d- work a lot harder for some of these things. I, I would actually argue that we were actually a lot happier 20 years back than we are today.

Courtney : I agree. I’ll, I’ll ask you this question. I’m curious, is there something that you intentionally put yourself in the way of discomfort that you derive a great deal of satisfaction from?

Gil : I like building with my hands quite a bit. Um, so I still… Like, I, yes, I use machinery, but I, I, I like creating something from scratch. Uh, like, last night I was, um… It’s Teacher Appreciation Week, and we were making gifts for our teachers, and we had, um, made them little figurines that we were hand-painting ourselves, and there’s just, just a lot of joy out, like, slowing down and, like, doing some of those things.

And yeah, I think, like, that is, like, something that, like, non-technological… I don’t know if it’s comfort or not comfort, but, like, it’s, there’s a lot of, like, warmth and kinda anal- analog-ness out of it. And I, I don’t get– A- admittedly, I don’t get a lot of that because I’m surrounded by technology almost all the time, and I do get enjoyment out of technology.

And so, like… But I do enjoy also, like, okay, can I do something that is screen-less, that is not plugged in, that I get to enjoy?

Courtney : Yes, and I’m sure there was some discomfort in the learning process of learning something new there to be able to have the skills to create the figurines. And for me, I love hiking, so the harder the hike that I can do, the more exhausted and trembling I’m at the top of the peak, the greater it is, that view from the top.

And so that’s always my reminder, like usually up the mountain, I’m like, “Whose idea was this? Why am I doing this?” And then you get to the top, and it’s just like the reward of that discomfort is so impactful. It’s like no other feeling in the world, so.

Gil : I mean, that’s– I think that’s with a lot of things. Like, the, the harder that you work on something, the more rewarding it is, and I think that’s something that we’re robbing ourselves of a lot of times now, especially with the age of AI. Like, oh, I– it’s so easy to do different things that, like, a lot of times it’s less effort than before, and, like, you don’t feel that sense of achievement as if you were to do it by hand.

Um, so that, that craft is slowly dwindling. So we’ll see. We’ll see where that goes.

Courtney : I can’t remember who said the quote. We’ll have to give them recognition somehow. But I always remember the quote, “There are two pa- there are always two paths to take in life. One is the easy route, and the only reward is that it’s easy.” So I, I always try to think about that quote.

Gil : I like that. 

Speaker 5: I 

Gil : like that. I, I haven’t heard that one. I have heard, like, many different, like, hard, hard and easy paths, but not, not, not, not said that way. I like that one a lot. Awesome. Uh, Courtney, then that, that’s– I think that’s a good segue to that, the next question that I have for you. What’s one piece of mindset advice that you would give to someone that’s starting something completely new?

Courtney : I would say I’ve done so much mindset work, and it’s a never-ending process, as you probably can relate. I would say one of the biggest learnings, though, is to never put parameters on yourself. Don’t go into a big goal or aspiration and think This is such a big goal, it’s going to take me a year. You don’t know.

You can accomplish it in two months. Or I, I think I can only get this amount of revenue in this business model. You don’t know that. You don’t know what you’re going to find along the way. And so I would say don’t set boundaries and parameters around anything you’re trying to achieve, because I have just experienced so much growth and abundance and so much more than I ever could have imagined by releasing those artificial boundaries that I put on myself, and I would love to see others do the same.

Gil : love that. How, how do you balance that with, like, setting, setting goals? Because, like, I, I– and, and I would love your take on that, of this, like, when you set down this path of starting your own design business, like, I’m sure you had goals in there, but, like, how do you balance that with, like, not trying to put yourself in, like, restrictive mindsets?

Courtney : Mm-hmm. That’s a really great question. I, I believe there’s a balance. I, I mean, especially as a business owner, right? We have KPIs we have to meet, and we can’t create this KPI that’s to the moon because we’re never going to meet it, and that has downstream im- downstream impacts on the business. So I, I think you have to let that part of your brain work, but then also take a step back and in my day before I get out of bed in the morning, so I’m awake, but I haven’t stepped out of bed, and same thing at night when you’re sort of in that liminal space before sleep, but

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Courtney : still awake.

I just envision the biggest, wildest, craziest future I could ever dream and envision that state and let my brain just go wild and feel the feelings that that brings about, which is like levity and excitement and all these positive feelings. And so I think we can be responsible business owners and ground ourselves in goals and KPIs, but then still allow ourselves to dream and connect with something bigger.

Gil : Yeah, yeah. I mean, even if you think about the corporate world, like they separate like the mission and the vision of things and the KPIs, like it all has its intended purposes in its own different ways there. Um, and it’s like, I, I think what you– the, the point that you’re, you’re, you’re making is that like don’t set your vision on a, on a limit.

Like you can still have KPIs, you can still have goals for those types of things, but don’t limit your vision on what you can and cannot do. Um, and, and like almost compartmentalize those as two different distinct things.

Courtney : better. Thank you for summing it up so well.

Gil : Awesome. Courtney, we talked a lot about a lot of the shared learnings between hospital- or hotels and shorter rentals, your design and how you approach really, I think, starting off with strategy first before even thinking about the textiles, the colors, and all those different things. What’s one thing that our listeners can put into practice today to either get started in direct bookings or amplify their direct bookings?

Courtney : Yeah. I would say to amplify direct bookings, creating that sense of place is so important. And so step one to that, because I see our design firm as designers, we aren’t just creating beautiful spaces, we’re stewards of history and the surrounding area. And I feel like owners can, can also be stewards of that by just picking up a book on Amazon or going to the library and learning something they wouldn’t have known about the area that their property is in, and letting that just inspire some little detail change.

I … When I was designing that project, my second property in North Myrtle Beach, I learned that, um, I learned all about rope tying and how much that’s used, of course, with, with the use of boats and at the ocean. And so I just let my mind wander and created a little box and put different size ropes there and a book for children and a book for adults so families could sit down together and learn how to tie these different nautical knots and, and leave with that.

So I would say if people could just get a book or go online and, and start to explore the sense of place and be a steward of the history and the area and the message that you’re delivering to your guests, and that will come through in photos and the guest experience.

Gil : Yeah. I, I really love that because it’s, it’s really about, like, that connectiveness of, like, just not, not only the people that are staying within your place, but also a connectiveness between the place that they’re at and the family, um, there where you’re not just plotting this property into, like, some area and it’s gonna, it’s gonna go well.

You’re trying to make sure, like, they’re able to enjoy all the little bits and pieces of it that h- helps ground them a little bit. Like, they’ll, they’ll remember those small little moments quite well.

Courtney : Absolutely. And if you’re, if anyone’s self-hosting, you’ll get the feedback in the guest messages, and it’s the warmest feeling you’ll ever get when somebody notices that little detail and they say, “I sat with my son and I learned how to tie knots for two hours. Thank you for that experience.” And I just like, “Ah,” break down in tears.

So if anyone is hosting themselves, definitely take the time to do, do that and let the guest messages come in, ’cause it’s so rewarding.

Gil : Yeah. It, it makes it a little bit different too. Like, it, it makes it where they’re getting something special, and you may or may not even photograph those things in there. Maybe you do, but it’s, it’s not the highlight. It’s not why they’re booking the place. But it is a moment that they get to enjoy when they’re at your place, and I think it’s that kinda to the earlier point that we had earlier is like, yes, you wanna make sure you’re photographing your place so you’re attracting the right people, but you also wanna create a very intimate feeling when someone’s staying at your place where they’re like, “Oh, I had something special here.”

That’s… And, and that’s what you want them to walk away with. Like, the people that get the most direct bookings, like out of all of our customers, everyone that, like, gets phenomenal direct booking rates, we’re talking about 80% plus, they always have really good word of mouth. They have really– Like, their satisfaction’s extremely high.

The, the enjoyment of, like, hospitality. They think about the entire guest experience. Like, those are the ones that do phenomenally well, and they bring guests back over and over again, but they also have the strongest word of mouth where they’re attracting people that had friends that stayed with them as well too.

So I think that’s, that’s so important there.

Courtney : Hundred percent.

Gil : Awesome. Courtney, it was a huge pleasure having you on the show. Where can folks learn more about you? How can they follow you? Yeah. How can they possibly even work with you as well too?

Courtney : Well, thank you for the great conversation. And yes, so we are Denori Designs, D-E-N-O-R-I. We’re on Instagram as Denori Designs, Facebook, denoridesigns.com. So if they want to reach out, there’s a ton of buttons on our website to reach out, and we would love to… We always take a look at properties for people and send thoughts if they’re not sure, “Do I need a refresh?

Do I need a whole redesign?” We definitely help guide to make sure that you’re making the wisest choice for ROI and, and direct bookings as well, so.

Gil : Awesome. Uh, thanks again, Courtney, and I, I hope folks that need, need the help can, can find you and they know where to go now. And we’ll, we’ll make sure that we leave that in the show notes as well too. Thanks

Courtney : Awesome. Thanks so much, Gill.

Gil : right, bye.